Echo Hub

Woohoo, shout out for Tomball. My highschool graduation was held at that church.

54 ipads, and all you got is a couple loops with some awesome music that don’t even go together? plus the weird turning the ipads sideways.
is a great idea, but for 700 man hrs, could have been way more awesome.

That’s not exactly the tone we like to strike here, Wispe, but I’m looking forward to seeing the awesome video wall you put together next Christmas.

Wispe, please feel free to send us all a link to your latest spectacular work, I’m sure you have many to choose from-judging by your comment.

Thanks, Scott!

Thanks, Bobby!

Holy. Crap.

This is awesome!

I don’t get it. Maybe you had to be there.

Is there a version without the iPads so we can see what’s going on in the background? Pretty cool stuff back there.

Your comment to wispe is exactly the same sort of tone… maybe more subtle, but cuts just the same.

The thing I’m amazed that no one has said yet, is how does this in any way enhance a worship service. It makes me feel like it’s the blue man group or some other stage performance… but how does this help tell the story of Jesus’ incarnation in any way at all? How does it lead people to worship the king born at Christmas? I think it distracts people from the real message that Jesus was born in a stable, lowly… unknown…

This is an example of exactly what Jesus’ birth WASN’T like… maybe if it was used to retell the angels singing to shepherds? I dunno… pretty cool technology and very creative use… I just don’t see how it enhances a worship service. I actually think it detracts from the message that ought to be told… And it’s Carol of the Bells – the music wasn’t even Christian. Nothing about that was about Jesus outside of 4 seconds of a baby’s face?

If you took the same thousands and thousands of dollars that were spent on, also contributed 700 man hours to putting that $ to use, I wonder how many hungry mouths could have been fed? How many lives could have been changed in a tangible way that may have led them to Christ? I think anytime a worship director (or producer) has these sorts of resources, it’s awesome! But it requires major discernment to know when and where is the right place to invest it… This seems over the top for a Christian worship service…

just sayin’.

My intention wasn’t to take the same tone, but rather to challenge Mr. or Mrs. Wispe to rise above a “could have been way more awesome” model of living. If you’re certain the bar could be raised, then please, raise it. That’s what the rest of us need from you.

As far as your critiques of the resources that this particular church invested in this creative element, I absolutely agree with you that discernment is required. I think where I stop short of your position is that I’m hesitant to be the one to tell others what’s over the top and what’s not.

If 700 hours was excessive, what would’ve been acceptable? 70? If so, what are you basing that on? What biblical standards do you use to draw the line that demarcates one church’s efforts as extravagant and another’s as sensible?

In my opinion, these are questions that should be asked and answered with heavy doses of context, community, and grace, rather than via judgment grenades lobbed across a Comments section.

Because our resources (time, money, manpower, energy) are inherently scarce, we have to make choices. Each of these choices comes with an opportunity cost. Time spent writing blog comments is time not spent in prayer, and yet that choice can rightly be made without vilifying the writing of blog comments. Time spent preparing a sermon or a video is time not spent counseling a struggling believer, and yet that choice can rightly be made without vilifying the crafting of a God-sent message.

Yes, Phil, hungry mouths should be fed. But so should hungry hearts. Let’s not pit those two pursuits against one another. Let’s not disparage those whose expressions don’t resemble our own. Instead, let’s make the most of the resources and callings we’ve been given, and let’s help each other wherever we can along the way.

Scott, you have a point about the “way more awesome” sentiment. But you’ve gone over the top in the other direction, especially in your plea for hungry hearts. In this effort, hungry hearts were fed the equivalent of a Costco-sized crate of pop rocks.

One point that I’d like to make regarding the resource issue is that it doesn’t take all that much time for so many volunteers to add up to 700 man-hours. It’s easy to lose sight of that if at your church 700 man-hours would mean that one poor sucker would have to go all year to pull it off.

On balance, the presentation is playful, it’s fun, it’s imaginative and collaborative — those are all good and healthy things for any church. But it does end up being pretty superficial for all that it’s spectacular. Nothing that a judicious addition of story couldn’t fix next year. And intentionally making God the target of praise, not the software engineer. (Oops!)

That would totally make it way more awesome.

Holy. Crap. Good? Bad? Reaction to comments? I’m replying to your email right now, but just saw this comment.

Maybe I don’t get it. Compared to other entertainment stuffs I have seen this is actually kinda passé. Stuff like Cirque de Solei production level entertainment or the big scoreboard at Cowboy Stadium? Now those are cool. And MASSIVE productions and video sweetness. For a church it’s kind of interesting but seems like a long run for a short slide in terms of spiritual impact. But I don’t goto this church so to each his own for deciding if this is what you want from your place of worship.

I hear what you’re saying, Brad, but without the opportunity to experience the entire worship service in which this creative element appeared, we’re not really in a position to condemn it as superficial.

In other words, yes, a plate full of salt would make for an unhealthy meal. But the right amount salt applied to the foundational elements of human nutrition can make for a great meal.

What SLC has shown you here is the salt, and you’re trashing it for its lack of protein.

I believe the purpose of this site is not to critique the work of other, but rather to inspire creativity in others. That is how i took it atleast.

That’s our hope for it, Jamaal. Thanks for reading.

I’m going to take advantage of your metaphor, Scott. Salt is an essential seasoning. But salt on its own doesn’t make for a great meal. Or a delectable course. Not even an appealing appetiser.

I recognise that I don’t have context for this piece. I’m going from what is in front of me. There are things worth rejoicing over elements of this video, and what it sets up for the church (as I expressed above). I am also compelled to lament its lack of story, depth and relatability.

This is not the same as ‘trashing it’ or ‘condemning it’.

As I said above, I think you’re lamenting salt for being salt, which, as I mentioned, makes for an unhealthy meal on its own. But what I should’ve said above is that I appreciate the heart you and commitment you bring to this conversation (as well as your other contributions here and around the Webs).

wow! that is awesome…I think it’s vital for churches to use technology creatively. Nice work, thanks for sharing.

Thanks Scott. I appreciate this. And I appreciate all that you’re doing as well. Immensely!

You saw what i emailed you… and those were my honest thoughts. My initial “holy. crap.” response was a marveling at the technological feat that took place before my eyes on this video. I know what it took to pull this off … and “holy crap” it’s a lot and it’s amazing… and it was synced beautifully to the rest of the screens & lights. It’s not a small undertaking at all.

But “holy crap” could also refer to all the comments that are happening b/c of one church’s unique expression of extravagance… and how so many people commenting on this video lack so much awareness of the tone they are setting & have blinders on to the bigger picture… and are throwing “comment grenades” at this local church.

There’s so much more going on behind the scenes with this story … and with the entire christmas production that no one is seeing via this quick YouTube video.
and everyone is trying to over-spiritualize something that is fun, celebratory & innovative.

Not everything has to have a cross hanging on it.
Geez.

Live trumps online…EVERY. TIME.
But I’m still thankful that they at least posted this cool segment of their production.

The Church could use a little more Cirque de Solei.

and what about the Sistine Chapel? It was the “Cirque” of its time.
Let’s not be quick to define what “spiritual impact” means…especially not for this church… as sometimes simple beauty that is more abstract & promotes emotion more than intellectual knowledge is also very impacting in the spiritual realm, in it’s own unique and foreign way.

WOW. I have a lot of thoughts, frustrations & convictions swirling around in my head right now…so I’ll try to be brief with this comment (which is more of a reply to the rest of the comments than to the post itself):

- after visiting the world’s most expensive mosque, a place that was heavenly & pulled my soul’s gaze upwards to Heaven, I emailed some photos & descriptions to a mentor of mine.
…
He replied, “You see! There is an enormous difference between an expensive, even opulent expression of love for God (e.g. Notres Dames) and “wasted resources”. Frugality can be a sin. Premodern people understood this idea.
The pastor of a church that meets in a reclaimed Walmart who sees a great basilica in Europe and calls the cost of building of it “a sinful waste of resources” needs to read John 12:1-7. God is apparently less offended by an extravagant act of love than by frugality born of pride.”
I smell Judas & Pharisees.

- who are we to judge another’s extravagant offering of worship? What if I show up to your next family’s Thanksgiving dinner & your family does an extravagant dessert buffet as a weird tradition instead of the traditional turkey?
And you decide to put photos of your dessert dishes on twitter and youtube.
Then I come on and say “what is that about?! Such a sinful waste of resources! There are starving people in this world and you are all sitting around eating dessert? Plus, it’s Thanksgiving! Where is the turkey? You aren’t celebrating Thanksgiving at all…. in fact, its a stretch to call that stuff “food” in the first place.”

- This is this one church’s attempt to do something unique and cool. And they’ve done way more than I’ve seen most churches do. And I’ve just about seen it all, folks. This is their “Sistine Chapel” moment (or at least they are on their journey towards that place). And what they are wired to do (literally) is something way different than what other churches are wired to do. We should applaud their uniqueness & innovation, not talk down to it b/c it’s something we wouldn’t do ourselves. The Church is a mosaic… not a mirror.

- we need to seriously re-evaluate the meaning of “message” and “spiritual impact” … we need a broader meaning. B/c I don’t believe everything has to have a cross hanging on it, with a bible verse at the end, & a “Christian” song playing in the background. (don’t even get me started on the false dichotomy of “secular” and “sacred”.)
Simple beauty, by itself, is sometimes all that is needed.
What do the stars, oscillating & glowing bright colors and making ticking noises, what do they mean?
What does the Grand Canyon mean?
What does the color red mean?
What does a Picasso painting mean?
What does the taste of chocolate mean?
A double rainbow… what does it mean?! (sorry, couldn’t help myself…i digress.)
I guess all these things lack depth and meaning and are therefore not “Christian” either. Right? And therefore have no place in our churches… churches that we all long to be more “creative.”
Let’s quit over-spiritualizing everything to death, especially with a version of “spirituality” that is severely limited, watered-down & purely-academic.

- as Scott pointed out, the heart should be fed as well.
Remember what Mother Teresa said: http://echohub.com/posts/communication/feed-your-people/
Even if it’s pop rocks & coke (which is a LOT of fun & a creative combination, i might add.)
This video & the presentation itself isn’t meant to be the whole “meal.” It’s a fun start. And it’s a celebration. It evokes certain emotions & different emotions for everyone, as art tends to do. it’s open-ended.
We are not seeing the entire context here… with the production, or the church’s story, or even the guy from Istanbul.

- This production was probably sponsored by the Turkish company and part of the deal was online exposure. (They sure are getting it now!) And who knows if the relationship w/ this tech guy hasn’t been a “missional” one or not. At the very least, an opportunity to work with someone from a different country.
Good Lord.

- with all this said, and judging solely on this video and not the whole context of the situation, if I were in charge of the production, I might do some things differently. Like not having the emcee come up and kill the moment afterwards.
But that’s WAY besides the point. That’s like me going up to another painter and saying “umm, I wouldn’t choose that color!” WHAT THE HECK?!
It’s HIS painting… not mine! And who am I to say it’s not art or not… or that it’s not as impacting as it could’ve been.

- This church, like all of us, is on a journey. We’re all at different places and on different paths leading to the same finish line. Some have been gifted with talented artists, and some have not. Some have lots of resources and some do not. God has uniquely equipped us & wired us for a specific time and for a specific community. We do the best with what we have. SLC is trying the best they can… even if that means at the end of the day, they cycle through stock motion backgrounds across 54 iPads. Could they have used custom content that has more of a black & white “message”? Sure. But they didn’t. And probably for good reason, which isn’t mentioned. Or who knows, maybe they were lazy & didn’t think about “content” at the end of the day. Either way, they pulled off a LOT. And it was really cool & beautiful.

I’m so grateful that I get to be a part of productions like this, and can pay my bills at the same time. I am very blessed and take this for granted way too often. Our American churches have so much to be thankful for…and are blessed with a lot. We’ve got it so easy.

We are but orphans and dogs invited to dine on the Table with the King & all of Israel. And yet we sit around, acting entitled to the Food, and complaining about certain dishes, and saying “my plate is better than your plate.”
Instead, we should be on the floor, grateful for any crumbs that fall off the Table.

Lord, save us from ourselves.

I could not agree more Stephen. Reading these comments breaks my heart. Who needs the Enemy when we have all of these Christians willing to do the job of causing dissension amongst the body…. right? We were made in the likeness of the most creative being in the universe…. and you think this might offend Him? Are you kidding people? He loves this stuff. Proverbs 21:2 says ” A person may think their own ways are right,
but the LORD weighs the heart.” Only God can judge the heart of man. Remember that in your negativity, in your scolding. That this church saw an opportunity to glorify the name of Jesus through art, and who are we to question their motives. The video contains nothing contradictory to the Gospel or Word of God, and that is what matters.

To quote a friend of mine Gary Molander:
” We create art in response to God, because the world needs it.”

This church had an opportunity to give people what they believed they needed, a visual representation of an unspeakable joy to Jesus.

That is what this church felt led to do.

We are the BODY of christ people…. Some are hands, some are eyes and ears. I know this could have “fed a lot of people,” as phil put it…. and perhaps that is what his ministry is wired to do. This church clearly was having an eyes and ears of Christ moment this christmas. There is nothing wrong with that. It takes all sorts of churches to reach the world.

Stephen, friend you have put this into great perspective. I firmly believe that some of us are hands, and feed people… some of us are eyes and show people gorgeous things that glorify God…. if the church is the BODY of Christ… that means somewhere out there… perhaps on this comment board… is the anus of the church. They crap on everything and everyone. (sorry that jest came in my head and I couldn’t resist)

my basic point is that I found this presentation to be incredible. I’m sure the Lord accepted it as a great offering of praise… and we must be very careful before we think we can judge the heart of people based on a video like this…. That’s all.

One more thing… I would just like to comment on the fact that out of all of these comments… Proctors was the first one to mention anything on a scriptural foundation… aside from the moderators… Just an observation… maybe we should read the manual more…..

19 My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20 because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. -James 1:19-20

-Scotty

Wow. Good words, Scotty.
We’ve all heard the song “I wanna be Your hands, I wanna be Your feet, I’ll go where You send me…”
but have never thought about being the EYES of Christ… seeing what He wants me to see!

We help the Church to SEE. And we use media, technology & art to do it (& there are so many other ways, as well).
Sometimes it’s to help the Church see the orphan & the widow so that the hands & feet can go to work.
And sometimes we help the Church to see simple beauty, to gaze at a sunset, look up at a starry sky, or even into a cool technological display of color & light…b/c our hands & feet need to rest. And our heart needs to be fed with Jesus, The Beauty.

This worship service just may be the venue to pull technologically stimulated persons back to church. Who’s to know if this one video with so many iPads might just be the bait to lure some wandering soul into the Lords waiting arms? Who’s to say that this wasn’t the reason this iDea wasn’t divinely planned? Some people are drawn to the words, some are drawn to the sounds, and some to the sights. Let them all be drawn to the Lord in their own way! There may be someone watching this production who says, “I’d like to be a part of that. Maybe the Church isn’t so dry and dull after all. Maybe I could go see what they have going on.”

Perhaps I can be some sort of a voice in the middle?

Positive-I think they found a great way to take advantage of technology and use it during a time when most churches have a tremendous amount of visitors. The beautiful thing about technology is the way it allows us to create liminal spaces for worship, in which the inherent beauty that surrounds the presence of God can be given rapt attention for a moment in time. The purpose behind the Constantinian era church as well as the medieval was to create a space for worship that rivaled the heavens and pointed the worshiper towards the reality of God.

If you read into church history, you can find amazing descriptions of what church buildings were like, especially in the decades after the emperor made Christianity the official religion. With Roman money behind them…the built baptismal fonts, sanctuaries and other sacred spaces that were designed to cause a visual awareness of the power of God. This was experiential worship at its best.

What we see in contemporary examples of technology in worship seek to provide the same thing. We use what we have at our disposal to create an environment that takes the participant to a deeper place and experience with the Triune God. This church did an awesome job of thinking of a delivery method for that.

Negative-I was hoping the video was going to be the silent night sequence or show the “countless iPhones”. I was hoping this meant everyone in attendance with an iPhone could potentially take part in this. One of my pet peeves about big presentations like this is that they make the worshiper the spectator instead of allowing them to be a participant. I am hoping that what we didn’t see in the video was exactly this.

I agree with a couple of comments about the content (song, visual presentation). The whole Transiberian Orchestra thing is getting old. When they guy used it to sync up his Christmas lights 6-7 years ago…it was awesome. Now, I wonder if it might be a little cliched. I would have hoped that with an opener described in the post, the subsequent service starter (we could even call it a Call to Worship..this is a Lutheran church!) would have had more sacred elements in it. I think the intro could have carried the heavy theological theme of Silent Night to another level.

++
This was an awesome idea. If your church has the resources to do something like this…I would jump all over it. But as folks who lead worship using technology and innovation, we need to be careful we don’t forget we are leading worship.

Looks like somebody read “The Art of Curating Worship.”
=)

Well I am proud and glad to see a church that matches their lighting colors to the media!!!

*steps down*

Ok, seriously; I see a church that used people’s gifts, talents, abilities, and relationships to DO SOMETHING creative. The more and more I do live events and things like this, the more I realize it is about the relationships and process and heart than it is about the actual production.

People forget what the venue looked like, or what the song was…but they NEVER forget how they were treated.

Years from now this church and the people involved probably won’t remember how this was pulled off, what motion loop was used, or whatever…but I promise you that what they WILL remember is how they treated each other in this process, and frankly….how the internet community is responding.

For crying out loud, if I was in charge of this project and at this church, I would be hesitant to post anything we do AGAIN with all this nit-picky about things that honestly won’t even be remembered. And think how sad that is, if people in churches start NOT posting cool and creative things simply because they don’t want to be bashed by their OWN COMMUNITY.

Good grief.

To the team at Salem Lutheran: Well-done. I know that took a lot of planning, and I hope it was a positive experience for your entire team. Cherish the time and conversations you had while undertaking this, because like I said, that is what you will remember in the years to come.

Agreed. Very well said! At the end of the day, it is relationships that matter. They will know us BY OUR LOVE… our love for one another. Not by our art…not by our building… or programs… presentations…etc.

We say the ministry is happening out in the seats where the spectating (or if you are lucky, the participating) worshiper is. And I agree.
But we must also realize that the much of the ministry is happening AMONGST US. It’s not just about reaching lost people (and I would tangent to say that a “come and see” model is not what Jesus preached… he said GO & TELL)… but so much of Church is about our own community & relationships.

And let’s applaud SLC’s pastors and leadership for allowing their creative/arts/tech/media team to do something as risky as this. That in-and-of-itself is a huge ministry & validation to the artists & techies in that church. And we should never overlook, under-value or underestimate that on our own.

It’s not just about serving the congregation or even the lost, but serving each other!!!
When we learn to do that well, that is the best way we can serve our community.

Like Camron said, well-done Salem Lutheran!

Good job.
It isn’t the total time taken (x number of hours), it is the effort put in. As in giving it your all.

It reminds me of the widow and the mites. She gave it her best/all.

It gives us ideas of what to do. What to copy & what to do better.
It’s putting yourself out there and doing something new – even shocking.

First off, to the church, WOW! That was a lot of work. Well done. I hope it was a blast to plan, prepare and pull off. Thank you for taking a risk with art and creativity.

To the commentators (especially the critical ones), WOW. Lighten up.

Ian Cron once told me that the church is inhabited by three types of people; truth people, goodness people and beauty people. To be sure, like all personality descriptors, we each have some of the three qualities in us. But we are predominately one of the three.

Truth people are all about proclaiming God’s truth. That is a good thing. We need that in the church. Goodness people are all about helping others. That is a good thing. We need that in the church. Beauty people are all about finding ways to worship God through art. That is a good think. We need that in the church.

Problems arise, however, when say, a goodness person sees art as wasteful. Or when a beauty person never actually gets around to sharing the why behind the what.

The fact is, a healthy church need all three people. Because, as Ian says, each balances out the excess of the other. The big-C Church needs all three types. We need truth, we need goodness and we need beauty. And if we eve we always don’t “get ” what someone else is doing, we should not condemn the use of their unique gifting.

If you are a truth or goodness person who watched this video and doesn’t get it, that’s OK. But before you condemn it as frivolous or wasteful, consider that God delights in the praises of His people. And if you are a beauty person who thinks it could have been more awesome, then by all means, please go and make something more awesome! We need to be inspired and challenged and spurred on to create greater expressions of art and worship. But don’t condemn your brothers and sisters for the art they created because it wasn’t up to your standards.

And to Stephen and Camron, I love you guys. Your comments are spot on and I’m glad you took the time to share them. Please keep encouraging the Church to create art.

The biggest problem people have with Christians is that we take ourselves and our faith too seriously. No wonder people don’t want to come to church. If Jesus was as serious as we make him out to be there never would have been a Christian faith. He’d have bored everyone to death. He was an entertaining storyteller who enthralled people. I dare say he had a ton of fun doing what he was doing.

Sometimes it’s good to do something for no other reason than to make people smile and have fun. There is nothing that I remember reading in the Bible that says it’s a sin to not act silly at times. Did this have any Christian value? If all you think Christianity is is to be serious and not do anything that’s not “Christian” then no. But if you think Christianity is about being able to have fun and go outside the bounds of what’s considered normal and in the process get people talking about the church that did something amazing and hilarious and made people happy and forget about the cares of the world for even a minute then they did a GREAT job!

If your view of Christianity is that it’s supposed to be totally serious and that’s how your church feels, then God bless you. But that’s not the kind of Christianity and church that I want to be a part of. I’m more than happy to be at a church that does stuff just to put a smile on someone’s face and push the bounds of imagination.

Outside of the manhours it didn’t cost the church anything to do this. They already had the iPads sitting there unused during Christmas vacation. I say kudos to the imaginative team that came up with this. I couldn’t have dreamed it but I’m glad they did.

It’s on my shelf…but I haven’t read it yet. Having a masters in liturgical theology doesn’t hurt…

I am the video editor at Salem Lutheran Church. I am a 49-year-old homemaker who works part-time and has no formal video production education. I’ve been mentored by some incredible people on the job at SLC and work with a dedicated team of creative people. I draw so much inspiration and encouragement from people like all of you (well, some of you) on this blog, and from conferences such as Echo. I love that you encourage churches of whatever size, with whatever means they’ve been given, to use their creative gifts to challenge, to teach, to inspire, and to bring joy as they are offered up to God.

Let me just tell you that I type this comment with tears in my eyes for the loving support I read toward the bottom of this thread. Whoever it was who said that this was probably a joyful offering we brought before the King was spot-on, and it was just the first few minutes of a service filled with joy and the Gospel message.

Also…for those critical of the loops I used. You’re right. I had no budget. I used what God had given me in the form of freebies from generous sites, and from loops I’d purchased in the past. The challenge was in the editing of the clips and the programming of how they would be sent to the iPads through the Softtech software application….and syncing that with the band, lights, and top screens. Unfortunately, in the video you can’t see all the lighting or how cool it was to have people in the congregation participating with their iPads and iPhones.

Thank you, Scott, for posting our work here on Echo Hub to for the privilege of sharing it with so many creative eyes.

Pamela –

I applaud you and your whole team even louder.

Pam-how easy was it to “teach” folks in the congregation to use the app and participate? It sounds really cool…but everytime we try to integrate an app (youversion for an example) we have tried the learning curve is a bit to steep.

We had announcements with QR-Code in our worship folders and weekly congregational emails for several weeks before Christmas Eve telling them to get ready to join in on this interactive element. We told people to stop by the tech booth on Sunday if they needed help. We also made announcements and had a handful of people on the floor on Christmas Eve pre-service helping people get it loaded.

Admittedly, since we’re learning from each other here, we told people it would be “obvious” when they were going to be able to join in…since the iLEDMapper would take control of your screen when it was activated. We were anticipating something of a concert lighter/cell phone response. Some people put their phones away or had them face down when it came time, and missed it. We would have easily doubled the participation if we had been more specific about when this was going to happen.

We also use youversion live, but find it takes too much time during the service to try to walk people through it, much less try to explain Droid and iPhone steps. Perhaps we should try giving the same offer of help pre-service or in the worship folder for several weeks would help with this participation in this also.

Thanks so much, Camron. Your comments mean a lot to me, as I’m a huge admirer of your work.

stephen, here’s the fundamental problem in your argument: you’re simultaneously claiming that art is open-ended *and* that alternative opinions expressed here are arrogant.

You simply cannot have it both ways.

Either varying opinions must be evaluated even-handedly on their own merits, or someone claims that he or she is the authority. Seeing as claiming authority is arrogant, it seems clear to me that that’s not the way forward.

I agree with what I think is the main thrust of what you’re saying: that baseless negativity is self-defeating. What that doesn’t mean though is that we should all think the exact same thing about everything, and so sacrifice excellence that the diversity of calling, perspective and personality would give us.

We’ve *got* to be able to have these conversations better. We’ve got to keep Jesus as the focus of everything we do, both as creators *and* as critics. We’ve all got to remember that we are not speaking of faceless, anonymous drones, but souls all striving toward Christ in the ways that he reveals himself to each of us. We must speak our differences charitably, and receive them charitably as well.

Seeing as so much of this discussion is coming from how we are all taking this personally, I want to end this comment with a recent tweet from Gary Molander that I think is pertinent to all sides of this discussion:
“God is working in our hearts so that we’ll become less and less fearful of what people think of us.”

You will love it.

Pamela -
YOU. ARE. MY. HERO!!!

I’d like to send you a gift, if it’s OK. Please, send me an email – stephen@worshipVJ.com

brad-

The nature of open-endedness IS to have alternative opinions. This is the essence of art!

What I am calling “arrogant” is when those alternative opinions are expressed as FACT.

If it doesn’t “enhance” your worship (what does that even mean, theologically, anyways?) … then fine.
If you don’t “get it”, that’s fine, too . (See Mike Sessler’s comment.)
If it’s superficial & lacks story to you, then that’s OK, too.
These are all valid opinions. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

But when these opinions are expressed as if they are facts that the rest of us should succumb to, and the art is labeled as useless, wasteful sugar and other things mentioned here in the comments, then yes… that is arrogant.
And is very rude & faux pas in the contemporary art world (as should be in the Church…the original art world.)

On the note of claiming authority… there is a big difference between being an authority & being an expert. You can make yourself an expert on anything, but you can’t make yourself an authority. Authority is given. And an authority carries the responsibility of speaking life & truth & power into areas with love, confidence & humility.
But the arrogant comments I see here seem to be from so-called “experts” who are stating their opinions as facts for everyone else.

There is definitely a time & place for the experts & critics to voice their opinions. And in the Church, this should be done in love. And through trusted relationships, mentoring & coaching. Without love, we are nothing. Speak the truth in love, but we should not flatter disingenuously, yet still encourage those running the race as best as they can.

i think the critical comments on this blog would be MUCH different if the commenters had seen the production LIVE and actually sat down with Pamela and her creative team to hear their story and the creative process they went through. The “art” here is a live environment…not a YouTube video. So it’s very unfair to offer up a valid critique of their art in the first place, as it was meant for their church & in a live setting… not for us & this online context.

And when worship is expressed as art, should that even be critiqued in the first place? Who are we to judge someone else’s worship?

This post was simply a tiny glimpse into their joyful offering to our King.
I’m grateful for it… and Pamela Mintari is my hero.

Hey..I’m not too proud to accept a gift! Thanks so much, I’ll be in touch.

Wow, interesting firestorm happening here. I know where I stand about the heavy usage of technology in church (see @cotmtulsa’s full Christmas service here: http://vimeo.com/34169153), but I do agree with Brad that all the fancy lights and tech have to have story to back it up. Cool concept here, but it doesn’t move me, even in context of what came before and after. And maybe I stand alone on this, but Trans-Siberian Orchestra is way overplayed and needs to just go away in Christmas productions. It’s way too big of a cliché and is old news. I’m not trying to churn up a huge discussion here with my comment, so don’t expect a reply if you want to argue with my viewpoint.

Whoops, Vimeo link got paired with the closing parenthesis, so here it is again… http://vimeo.com/34169153

stephen, I understand you are passionate about this issue, but are you seriously going that far?!

The Sistene Chapel’s ceiling is filled with wondrous imagery that tell the narrative of our faith in remarkable detail and imaginative interpretation on every available surface. Cirque de Soleil is empty spectacle.

Is it really your opinion that these two should be equated, and that one’s intent and expression cannot be said to have more significant spiritual impact than the other?

[...] the comments section of what has become the most discussed and most controversial post in Echo Hub’s two-month history, one person questioned the way Salem Lutheran Church invested its [...]

Let’s just end it right there, Brad. You guys have different views about art and “spiritual impact,” which is fine, but here’s the problem: the conversation isn’t moving toward clarity, it’s moving toward discord and confusion. At that point, this forum is no longer appropriate.

Yes, in a way, I am going that far.
However, it’s a lot like comparing apples and oranges, kind of.

I agree with you in what you say the Sistine Chapel is. It’s very architecture & art speak deep & beautiful theology. Something that a typical “cirque” show today does not seem to do, at least on the surface.
However, the Sistine Chapel was built and painted in a day where the Church was the leader of the art world. It was one of the most wondrous spectacles of it’s time.

Today, the art world & Church have a huge chasm between them. And the Church has grown much more complex in it’s expression & beliefs… as has the art world. And in an area of the art world, “Cirque” is hailed as one of the most wondrous, live production spectacles of our time. Just like the Sistine Chapel was.

In my humble opinion, Cirque de Soleil is far from an empty spectacle. The creative minds & artists behind this show have created a unique & original world of imagination, beauty, mystery and many other things that celebrate human life. Though there are no floating crosses or scriptures clearly laying out the “Gospel” message, the few Cirque shows i have seen moved me deeply. It caused me to dream & to be inspired…. & to worship…. Jesus. There are so many unimaginable colors & experiences that we will see in Heaven…stuff that’s not described in the Bible…but it is there, nonetheless.
“For no eye has seen, no mind has conceived….”
Experiences like Cirque take me places and show me colors & things I’ve never dreamed of or imagined before. I’m not saying that Cirque is a picture of Heaven, but it may be….perhaps a glimpse of the unseen. And though the show doesn’t say “you should take all this and worship Jesus with it,” that’s what I am compelled to do anyways. Cirque may not be blatantly “Christian” in its theology, but it’s a very spiritual experience.

All good things are His. All beauty & creativity is from Him. That very fact that humans create speaks volumes to the theology that we are made in His Image…the Image of The Creator.

I sit in experiences like this and believe (without seeing) that Jesus is with me. And sometimes, I can hear Him whisper… things like “You see all this? I created it! And you have no idea how this grand experience doesn’t even scratch the surface of what I’ve prepared for you in Heaven!”

Jesus doesn’t need the Sistine Chapel to point people to the Father…He can use the rocks if He wanted to. If He can cause the rocks to cry out, surely He can use shows like “Cirque” just as powerfully, despite the “non-christians” involved in the process. The same was with the Sistine Chapel… there were certainly a lot of people leading the governing Church back then who were not followers of Christ, yet God works through us and despite us anyways.

I wouldn’t say one has “more” of a spiritual impact than the other. I would just say they have the ability to provide different kinds of spiritual impact… and many different ones at that.

I’m on staff at a church and one of the big things we struggle with here is how to balance what we think is cool and what a first-time visitor would think. If I was a first-time visitor there my first thoughts would be in the direction of, why did that church spend so much money on iPads? Not knowing the back story or anything being a first-time visitor, I would think the church is using it’s resources unwisely and I’d question that. We are all about making the new people feel welcome and ways to break down the walls of people with hard hearts, and I’m definitely not putting this down at all. I think it’s pretty sweet being the tech-savvy person I am. I would enjoy something like this. I just think it’s important to try to think of what the first-timers response to this would be. That’s all!

And I would also love to know what the response was. If they got any complaints about what I referred to above.

Jesus tells us to worship in spirit and truth. That ‘and’ is very important to me.

There is lots more that I could say, but I’m taking Scott’s advice and letting this go.

Josh…thanks for asking. You are exactly right. A guest WOULD probably assume we purchased the iPads, and probably see it as an extravagance. And for some churches, including many in our area, this type of extravagance (or WAY more) wouldn’t be out of the norm. We did need to make it clear to our members how we were accomplishing this. We told them in advance we would be doing something special with the iPads the school already owned. To tell you the truth, I’d have to go back and listen to the service to see if we addressed this directly on Christmas Eve. I believe we did, but if we didn’t, hopefully, if a guest came with a friend who was a member they were able to relay that information. Just as we learned a good lesson regarding assuming people would know when to use their iPhones, it’s a lesson learned that the public assumes the worst, as we’ve learned here on the web, even when all they’ve seen is five minutes of an hour long service. Oh…and I haven’t heard of any complaints that guests in attendance have made. The response from our members has been great, maybe in part because they saw it in context with the entire service based on the contagious Gospel message which also contained this compilation video recitation of the Luke 2 story from around the world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=871hmCBkwvM

I’d have to say that this truly saddens my heart; to see so many followers of Christ react in such a way is truly dissappointing. As I read through the series of comments, better yet, arguments I couldn’t help but ponder the question, “who are we [that our opinion matters]?!”. For years God has taught my what it is to be a Christ follower and I’m not going to lie, when it comes to my work in church media, PRIDE is a battle for me. But, I can take refuge in the fact that because my God decided to take an unwarrented beating… not so I can live MY life, but so I can live the life GOD has set aside for me. And of that life that He has set aside, He ask two things: 1) love ME with everything you have and 2) take MY Gospel everywhere, exemplifying MY love so that other’s can experience this LOVE I have bestowed upon them.

Christ didn’t leave step by step instructions on how we are to love Him or spread His Gospel. It doesn’t matter! If ministry (and yes, media is ministry) is fueled by LOVE, GOD WILL MOVE. When ministry is fueled by self-righteosness, GOD WILL STILL MOVE. That is where the awe and wonder factor comes in about God – even when we don’t make it about Him… it’s still about Him because He is the author. And this, this is where my question come’s in to play…

“who are we?!” that we even dare to be so bold and proclaim that we could have done better or it should have been done this way or that way. God wrote it! He is our Author. He is our Creator. We exist because He spoke us in to existance! Now I’m not playing a game of who is right or who is wrong, because if I examine myself, I too thought the same thoughts that we expressed here, but God reminded me, “you are all on the same team!”. Whether the production was done the way I would have done it or not, God was in it (He says so – Matt. 18:20)!! I leave you with this plea for unity! A house divided cannot stand, and if we plan on fullfulling His commandment, we can’t reach every nation if we can’t even be civil with on another.

Here is a good quick read that touches this very topic:
http://matthewbarnett.com/?p=292

Amen. (said as one who can be found just as guilty at times)

As I watched this portion of the presentation on Christmas Eve at Salem Lutheran Church, I was reminded of II Corinthians 4:6 “For God, Who said, ‘Let light shine out of darkness,’ has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” This video definitely displayed an array of light shining in the darkness. The video also reflected the face of the baby Jesus.

In a culture that has used technology to tear people away from the glory of God, I find it refreshing that a church would strive to be culturally relevant and use technology in worship. By example, we can teach others how to use all that we are given to serve our Lord and Savior. We are reminded in I Peter 4:10 “As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God’s varied grace.” God blesses us to share those blessings with others in His name.

Isaiah 55:11 states an incredible promise from God. “So shall My word be that goes out from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.” The Holy Spirit is not confined and will touch hearts to be open to the message of Christ Jesus in ways that we cannot imagine. The message of salvation and our need for redemption was indeed presented on Christmas Eve at Salem Lutheran Church in Tomball, Texas.

That’s great! Thank you for the reply! It’s good to know it was received well and it definitely makes me want to push the envelope a bit instead of just being safe. Thanks for the insight!

The most impressive part was the fact that a software developer from Turkey ( a predominately Muslim country) came and worked a week with this church.

Pamela,
I failed to say what an amazing job you did with the presentation and how excited and inspired I get from seeing churches who are taking risks and giving there all in this fast paced society that is filled with so much media ‘bling bling’!!I can’t wait to see what your church produces next and I pray God continues to bless your ministry and His name is made known in your city!

Wow, I guess I shouldn’t have waited a week to see if anyone responded to my post. I missed a lot of discussion! I admit it though… I AM coming from a different perspective; one that sees the American church and thinks it has missed the mark (almost) entirely and is creating an experience to be consumed… if that intro had been worshipful or pointed to Jesus’ birth IN ANY WAY, it would have been better… I’m not saying “Don’t invest in technological advances in order to stay relevant”… I was just arguing for some discernment about what to actually develop and how it gets used in Christian worship. That’s all.

[...] Salem Lutheran Church created an iPad video wall for their Christmas Eve service. Watch above, and follow this link to read more about it. [...]

Wow!!!

[...] EchoHub Article mentioned during the show [...]

[...] this off and on over the years, and it was brought back to the forefront when I came across a post on EchoHub that had generated quite a lot of controversy. A church in Texas created a pretty cool opener for [...]

I was going to post this as a general comment, but replying here seems like a good spot.

The woman who broke her bottle of perfume and poured it on Jesus’s feet and wiped his feet with her hair? Using up that perfume was very wasteful. It could have been used to feed the poor!

But Jesus was present and she wanted to honor him. And when you gather to worship, Jesus is present there, too.

I don’t know this situation well enough to judge it. But I do know that our God is not a good of efficiency. If he was, he wouldn’t still be waiting – inefficiently – for us to bring the kingdom to Earth before bringing about the end times.

So I think it would be more wise to reserve judgement on whether or not the resources were used effectively. If you want to provide constructive criticism, you should consider offering advice on how they could have improved some things here or there.

Maybe you could concept a way to use those iPads that’s more impacting in terms of story? I don’t know, but the burden rests on you the critic.

Not to sound negative, but sorry, that was not very good. I think it was a waste of money on iPads. It would of been a lot better show with just the big screens and without the iPads. Talk about throwing money away these days.